In a world where nine out of ten people on your city bus are metabolically dysfunctional, something has gone terribly wrong with our food system. But how did we get here, and more importantly, how do we fix it?

In this eye-opening episode of In the Arena, host Evan Baehr sits down with Dr. Marion Nestle, the pioneer of nutrition studies, to unpack the complex web of politics, profit, and human nature that's driving America's health crisis.

Nestle pulls no punches as she exposes the stark reality of our food landscape: a system designed not for public health, but for corporate profit. From the explosion of obesity rates in the 1980s to the ubiquity of junk food in our daily lives, she connects the dots between government policies, corporate strategies, and the food on our plates.

But this isn't just a doom-and-gloom conversation. Baehr and Nestle dive into provocative questions about personal responsibility, government regulation, and the role of entrepreneurs in solving this crisis. Can we really blame corporations for selling what we love to eat? Is regulation the answer, or just another avenue for corporate capture?

As Nestle argues for stronger government intervention, Baehr pushes back, questioning whether the same system that subsidizes corn syrup can be trusted to fix our diets. Their exchange highlights the tension between free-market solutions and regulatory approaches, leaving listeners to grapple with their own beliefs about how change happens.

Whether you're a policy maker, a health-conscious consumer, or an entrepreneur looking to disrupt the food industry, this episode will challenge your assumptions and leave you hungry for change. Join us for a no-holds-barred conversation about the most fundamental aspect of our lives - the food we eat - and discover why solving our nutrition crisis might be the key to addressing America's biggest challenges.

Transcript:

Evan Baehr
0:00:00
What is your call to arms for entrepreneurs?

Marion Nestle
0:00:04
I want you to figure out how to make it possible for people to eat more healthfully.

Evan Baehr
0:00:13
The only way to solve our biggest problems is to have the audacity to try. Welcome to In the Arena. I'm Evan Baer, your host. In the Arena with Evan Baer is sponsored by Arena Hall. In this episode, we're talking about nutrition. Now it's no secret that for many Americans, our diet is playing an active role in actually

Evan Baehr
0:00:33
making us sicker, and that poor nutrition and processed foods are linked to a wide variety of serious health problems. Think about this. Imagine you're on a public city bus, and there's 10 people on the bus. Did you know that nine of those 10 fellow passengers are metabolically dysfunctional, which we know is caused by food and leads to most of the major causes of death in America?

Evan Baehr
0:00:59
Other research also shows that poor diets are linked to half of the deaths from heart disease. That's over 900 people a day from that disease alone that could be prevented with healthier diets. The stats are so striking, so astonishing, that I just had to understand how we got here. So I decided to speak to the person

Evan Baehr
0:01:19
who's really the inventor of the field of nutrition studies. Her name is Dr. Marion Nessel, and she ran the department at NYU for decades. She was the best person to answer what's really been on my mind. How the hell do we get to the point

Evan Baehr
0:01:34
where for so many people, our diet is killing us.

Evan Baehr
0:01:37
Dr. Nestle, it is a real honor to have you in this conversation on In the Arena. In some of our other conversations,

Evan Baehr
0:01:42
we've been talking about the metabolic health crisis facing the country and talking with some entrepreneurs who are looking at things like constant glucose monitors and revolutions in nutrition to try to ameliorate what seems to be a crisis. Let's actually just start right there.

Evan Baehr
0:01:57
Just to a layperson, diagnose for us, what is your sober take on the American health care situation, the health of Americans today?

Marion Nestle
0:02:11
Well, it certainly could be better. I mean, we have a country in which we have a lot of money and the money is being spent in very strange ways and it doesn't go to making people healthier. So we have a food system that is designed to promote corporate food production, has nothing to do with public health, and is basically aimed at selling as much junk food as possible because it's really profitable to do that. And people are human, we love the taste of food, we love to eat, and when food is right in front of us, we eat it. And when it comes in large portions, we eat a lot of it.

Marion Nestle
0:02:57
We're human, and food companies take advantage of that. And so the big question for me is a really tough one. How do we get Americans to eat less in general or to eat more of healthier foods? And this is a very, very difficult question to answer.

Evan Baehr
0:03:19
Let's talk about the sort of nutritional crisis. If you were to zoom out and look at what and how Americans are eating, give us the key facts that we need to know about the state of the American diet.

Marion Nestle
0:03:30
Well, the big problem is that people eat too much. You know, we have a lot of people who have what is called food insecurity, which means that they don't have a reliable source of food on a day-to-day basis. But there's very little evidence in the entire population for nutrient deficiency diseases, vitamin deficiencies, or mineral deficiencies. Those are really quite rare

Marion Nestle
0:03:53
at the clinical level. There's a lot of concern that people don't get enough, but it doesn't really show up very much in their health. The big health problem that shows up that's related to food is eating too much. It's weighing more than is appropriate for your height and age. And that is, overweight is a risk factor

Marion Nestle
0:04:14
for type two diabetes, first of all. And then heart disease, certain kinds of cancers, bad outcome from COVID, overall mortality, and all the way down the list.

Evan Baehr
0:04:25
Yeah, so on the statistics of obesity, diabetes, both type one, type two, it's not a linear progression. It does seem like there was some more exponential growth in the recent decades. You're arguing eloquently that much of that relates to nutrition.

Evan Baehr
0:04:39
We're eating too much, simply more calories in than burned. Dive in a little bit on the macronutrients. What has happened to the American diet in terms of refined sugars, simple sugars, and the components that make up the macros of our diet?

Marion Nestle
0:04:54
Well, what's happened to the macronutrients depends on where you start. I like to start all of these discussions in 1980, which is when the prevalence of obesity started to rise so rapidly. But I think there were three things that happened in around 1980.

Marion Nestle
0:05:10
One was an enormous influx of calories into the food supply that was left over from policies of the 1970s where food producers were urged to grow as much food as they possibly could, fence row to fence row, as the Department of Agriculture put it. And American farmers were very good at doing that. They were rewarded for doing that. And the number of calories in the food supply increased by between 800 and 1,000 calories per capita,

Marion Nestle
0:05:48
men, women, little tiny babies, between 1980 and 2000. By an amazing coincidence, exactly the period in which the prevalence of obesity started to rise. So that was the first thing. There were a lot of calories in the food supply. The second thing was the deregulation of marketing. 1980 in the United States was when President Reagan was elected.

Marion Nestle
0:06:11
And he came into office with a deregulatory agenda. So the controls that used to be over marketing, and particularly marketing to children, were released and it became possible for food companies to market their foods in a way they never had before. But the third thing was something called the shareholder value movement, which was a movement of people who owned stocks, who said, we don't like this blue chip stock stuff where you get long-term, really slow returns on investment, we want higher returns on investment right now. And Wall Street bought that.

Marion Nestle
0:06:57
And so it then made it so that corporations had as their absolute first priority, making money for stockholders and profits for stockholders and all other considerations went by the wayside. That's been, I think, terrible for the American economy in general, but it was particularly terrible for food companies because they were trying to sell their products in an environment in which there were 4,000 calories a day available per capita in the food supply, which is roughly twice what the population needs on average.

Marion Nestle
0:07:34
And so they had to find new ways to sell food products. The marketing deregulation helped. They could now market products directly to children without any controls on it. But they also did other things. They put food where it had never been sold before.

Marion Nestle
0:07:50
And I remember when I started at New York University in the late 80s, the library had signs all over it saying if you bring food into the library, we're gonna get you expelled. Don't do it. Bookstores had signs in the windows, do not bring coffee into bookstores. Now there are cafes in

Marion Nestle
0:08:11
bookstores and the NYU library has a cafe and vending machines everywhere. So food everywhere, the rule is the more food is available the more people buy it. And the other thing was they made food in larger portions and here again, I remember exactly when the large portions came in. It was in the mid-1980s and all of a sudden muffins, which used to be little teeny 200-calorie things, what we now call mini muffins, suddenly exploded into those large things that are

Marion Nestle
0:08:45
sold absolutely everywhere. And if I had one concept I could get across. It would be that larger portions have more calories.

Evan Baehr
0:08:53
To your point about the ubiquity of food, I love the comedian Jim Gaffigan's line, I think he says, vacation is eating places that we've never been. It's like the library, the grocery store, there's a little snack bar at the hotel.

Evan Baehr
0:09:07
It is kind of everywhere. Tell us a little bit about the portions. The muffin concept resonates with me. What seems like a normal muffin is now called the micro or the mini muffin.

Marion Nestle
0:09:18
Yeah, and the same thing is true of bagels. Bagels used to be what are now called mini bagels and they have about 200 calories when you've got cream cheese and lox on them. Now they're 500 or 600 calories. If a person's daily calorie need is somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 calories a day, which is pretty average for the population. If you're eating a couple of those a day, that's half your calorie intake. And it's very easy to go to a fast-food place and or a restaurant and order a meal, one meal, that has more calories than you

Marion Nestle
0:09:58
need in an entire day. And people don't realize that they're eating that much, particularly if the food is what we now call ultra-processed, which is a new concept and one that I think is very important because it distinguishes a specific category of foods that we now know through an enormous amount of research,

Marion Nestle
0:10:20
encourages people to eat more calories.

Evan Baehr
0:10:23
I'd like to talk about fast food and junk food marketing in particular. I think sometimes I assume that I'm an autonomous agent. I make my own rational decisions. And if I ever desire a Coke, it's because I, you know, like the taste.

Evan Baehr
0:10:35
Clearly food marketing is a big deal. Give us an overview of the scale of what food marketing and advertising looks like.

Marion Nestle
0:10:43
Well, it's hard to do that because the figures

Marion Nestle
0:10:45
are not readily available, but it's billions and billions and billions of dollars a year just in the United States. McDonald's has always had more than a billion dollars a year in marketing in the United States. That's just the United States alone. And there are many products, the really popular products,

Marion Nestle
0:11:07
have enormous advertising budgets behind them. And that is just the amount. That's measurable. So that means that it goes through advertising agencies that report those figures. But in addition to that, there's probably twice as much

Marion Nestle
0:11:25
that is done in other ways. And that would include slotting fees at supermarkets. That's what companies pay supermarkets to position their products at eye level or at the end of aisles or at the cash register. Those products are not there by accident.

Marion Nestle
0:11:43
They're there because the companies pay for those spots where everybody is going to see them. And it doesn't include t-shirts and swag and things that are given out in playgrounds and other kinds of things like that. So it's very hard to put an absolute dollar figure on it, but it's a very large number.

Evan Baehr
0:12:05
As part of the efforts of the, especially the soda and the big food companies, it does seem like they have real war chests to lobby, to shape public opinion, to fund research that arguably is in the interest of supporting the health benefits of breakfast cereals,

Evan Baehr
0:12:20
for example. What's your kind of real take on the ways that big food is exerting influence on the sort of legislative process or shaping public opinion?

Marion Nestle
0:12:28
Well, I think it's really important to understand that food companies are not social service agencies and they're not public health agencies. They're businesses with stockholders to please and their absolute first and only priority is profits to stockholders. That's what they're about. They could be selling widgets.

Marion Nestle
0:12:49
They happen to be selling food. So to expect them to think about public health or to think about social service in the products that they're producing, they can only do that if those products are profitable and are as profitable as the junk foods they're producing. Unfortunately, junk food is really, really profitable. You can buy the ingredients when the ingredients are cheap.

Marion Nestle
0:13:16
You can leave it on the shelf for a really long time. I mean, they're fabulous products for making money. It's really hard to make a lot of money on a head of lettuce or a thing of broccoli. It's just much harder to do that.

Evan Baehr
0:13:30
And why is that? Like when I think about that for a second, the process of growing healthy pesticide-free lettuce, packaging it, keeping it fresh, the supply chain, are actually quite complicated versus shipping drums of sugar to inject into water

Evan Baehr
0:13:49
and put in plastic bottles. Why is the margin, why are profits so low on things that seem so healthy?

Marion Nestle
0:13:56
Because nobody's subsidizing them. You know, the Department of Agriculture subsidizes corn and soybeans, which is feed for meat or fuel for automobiles. 40 percent of American corn goes to ethanol. I don't get me started on that one.

Marion Nestle
0:14:14
And fruit and vegetable growers don't have the kind of political clout that all corn and soybeans is the same. Broccoli is different from lettuce, is different from sweet corn, is different from oranges and apples. So they don't have the kind of unified political power. And the Department of Agriculture has always considered healthy foods to be horticulture. It goes in the horticulture title of the Farm Bill, and they're called specialty crops.

Marion Nestle
0:14:46
And there are tokens of money that go to growing those foods because we have a food system that is designed to make profit for big agriculture. It's designed to promote the big meat processors, certainly not the people who are raising animals, but the people who process the animals. And that's where the profits in the food system are. And that's where the political power is, because they have so much money. So you can't separate what's going on from the politics.

Evan Baehr
0:15:22
Right.

Evan Baehr
0:15:23
I want to pick up on the corn subsidies for a second. It seems like research is coming out that corn and related refined grains and often the sugar that accompanies them is drivers of type 2 diabetes, which is creating this multi-hundred billion dollar trillion dollar healthcare cost potentially one of the gravest threats facing the nation. Literally a conversation we had a few weeks ago, they said if you were a foreign enemy trying to bring America to its knees, one of your key strategies would be our corn subsidy

Evan Baehr
0:15:53
program.

Evan Baehr
0:15:54
How do we end up as a nation providing such a massive subsidy to something we know and there's growing consensus on is essentially a poison for our citizens.

Marion Nestle
0:16:04
Well, have you looked at our electoral system lately?

Evan Baehr
0:16:07
Sure. Keep going.

Marion Nestle
0:16:09
We have an electoral system that's sold out to corporations. I mean, we have a Supreme Court that has ruled that corporations can put unlimited amount of money into election campaigns. The congressional representatives can only get elected if they have a lot of money to spend on advertising and everything else that you have to do to get elected. And they depend on corporate donations for that. And the corporations are extremely good about distributing the money in ways that reduce any kind of effort to try to do anything about corporate control.

Marion Nestle
0:16:48
I would say we have a government that's sold out to corporations, captured.

Evan Baehr
0:16:52
And you're kind of completely impugning any of the reason giving that people are arguing for corn subsidies. Your take is they're completely bought and sold and that the money explains it.

Marion Nestle
0:17:01
Well, I think it has. I think that's a very good place to start. I mean, you can then look at what's wrong with our agricultural system was get big or get out since the 1970s. And it got big. And the people who are farming corn and soybeans are not farmers. They're venture capitalists. They don't live in the areas where these products are being grown.

Marion Nestle
0:17:32
Nobody lives in the areas where these crops are being grown because everything's been mechanized. You go into the American Midwest and it's depopulated. You know, you want to do something to strengthen America, you have to repopulate the middle of the country with people who are on small farms, growing agriculture using regenerative techniques

Marion Nestle
0:17:56
that put back into the soil what they're taking out, and where you have enough population to have schools and towns that have movie theaters and other kinds of things and restaurants that people like. Nobody lives in these places because it's big agriculture. It's been very bad for our society. We don't have an agricultural system that's focused on public health, which is what I

Marion Nestle
0:18:17
think we need. And we have a lot of evidence that companies make food products, particularly the ones that are called ultra-processed, to be absolutely irresistible. You can't eat just one.

Evan Baehr
0:18:34
On the one hand, it sounds kind of crazy. At the same time, I actually have no idea what the alternative is. I mean, the very nature of a company is to organize people that create products. They want to understand the customer

Evan Baehr
0:18:44
and delight the customer, and through marketing, make the case for why their product is better, cheaper, faster than another product. Even if I'm buying organic lettuce, I might go to the store and see two heads of lettuce and one says 99.9% free of pesticides,

Evan Baehr
0:18:57
the other says 100% guaranteed free from pesticides. That's the point. As a consumer, I go and I, through marketing, understand what thing I actually want. So, help me understand the argument that you're trying to make.

Marion Nestle
0:19:09
I think we need regulation.

Evan Baehr
0:19:11
And what would that look like?

Marion Nestle
0:19:12
We understand that the purpose of a food company is to sell products at as high a profit as possible. That's the purpose of a food company. As is pharma, as is aerospace, as is manufacturing.

Evan Baehr
0:19:20
As in any other corporation selling any other thing.

Marion Nestle
0:19:24
If they weren't, it actually wouldn't be a corporation, right? So where do you see this going? So the question is, what do you do if you have corporations making products that are bad for people. You regulate them and the corporations are going to do everything they can to make sure that they're not regulated and food companies have done a very good job of that, as have many others. So they don't like regulation and I think regulation is

Marion Nestle
0:19:56
needed. I don't know what else we're going to do at this point. I'm impressed that there's very little government effort to try to do something about chronic disease, diet-related chronic disease. I don't see any national campaigns. I don't see any national effort. I see a health care system that's basically fallen apart that doesn't even work for rich people anymore because it's so dysfunctional. And at some point this has to change.

Evan Baehr
0:20:23
So, are there examples in your mind when regulation have worked to limit not just the consumption of any amount, but only the consumption of an excess amount?

Marion Nestle
0:20:35
Yeah, my soda taxes are an example. I mean, people are trying different kinds of regulatory approaches. It's not clear what works. But certainly, keeping sodas out of schools means that kids aren't drinking them during the school day. So that's going to cut down on the overall consumption.

Marion Nestle
0:20:55
You know, I mean, the general rule is if the food is in front of you, you're going to eat it. If it's widely available, you're going to buy it. If it's right in front of your face, you're going to choose it. And there's an enormous amount of research that shows that.

Marion Nestle
0:21:09
And the food companies know it and they take advantage of it and that's how they set up supermarkets and advertising and all the other things they do. They're very, very good at what they do. So then what do you as an individual do to protect yourself and your family? It's very, very difficult to do that.

Marion Nestle
0:21:27
That's why regulation is needed. In places where food products are not marketed to children, children don't ask their parents to buy those products. It doesn't mean zero and also we're Americans. It's much easier for Americans to understand don't do it at all than do it in moderation. We don't do moderation very well.

Evan Baehr
0:21:49
That's a really interesting point. It's this complicated message to sell for sure. So how is it that there are many things that humans might try and they exhibit harsh consequences to pretty quickly. Imagine a human goes into a store, you go into a Walmart, and let's say you buy a t-shirt.

Evan Baehr
0:22:13
You try the t-shirt on and it has some scratchy tag and so you're instantly like, ah, this shirt doesn't work for me. You go to the toothpaste aisle, you buy some kind of toothpaste and it's abrasive on your gum so you don't buy it again.

Evan Baehr
0:22:25
But you go buy Lucky Charms breakfast cereal and honestly the first 5,000 bowls of it are probably amazing. So I'm curious about the feedback loop. Is the challenge in helping humans make good decisions about our food, the fact that our feedback loop between what goes in our mouth and then what it does to our bodies is just too long.

Marion Nestle
0:22:51
I think it's even more complicated than that. We have to eat to live. We can't, you know, we don't have to smoke, but we have to eat to live. And so the question is, what are we eating? And from a food company standpoint,

Marion Nestle
0:23:07
you want people eating the products that you're making and selling, particularly the ones that are most profitable. So you design those products to be irresistible. Some people would say that they're designed to be addictive. I don't like to use that word in relationship to food

Marion Nestle
0:23:27
because it's not, food is not fentanyl. It's not an opioid and it's more complicated than that. And also it's not one product. It's not cigarettes where the message is, don't smoke, ever. Don't start. If you started, stop.

Marion Nestle
0:23:46
You can't stop eating. You have to eat in order to live. And so food companies take advantage of that by making that as pleasurable for you as they possibly can. And we now know, through really quite extraordinary and very well-controlled research. That eating what are called ultra-processed foods makes people eat more calories

Marion Nestle
0:24:10
than they recognize they're eating or need. Is that something that's addictive? I don't know. We can argue about the terminology. But this is human nature. It has something to do with the way we're hardwired to react to food. We have to eat in order to live. Our entire metabolism is set up to make sure we have sugar in our brains all the time so that we can function.

Marion Nestle
0:24:36
And the question of how we go about supplying that, we have thousands and thousands and thousands of options. one person to make choices in the middle of that is asking a lot. It's not that I have a dismal view of human nature, it's just that I recognize that we're hardwired to want to eat and we're hardwired to want to eat foods that we just love the taste of. And once we have those foods, we can't stop eating them.

Marion Nestle
0:25:06
Is that addiction? Some people think so. I think your view of human nature is similar to my view of government and I'm not certain that it's bankrupt

Evan Baehr
0:25:13
But here's my thought like yes I think they're actually smart people that are working to try to create effective regulations But when I think about government and regulation as a tool What we talked about earlier in this conversation was essentially it's all been bought and sold And so why do we expect that the very same government that says for people on snap and EBT can spend 30% of those dollars on sugar-filled juices and Coke to be good at regulating.

Evan Baehr
0:25:43
I mean, my fear is that regulations come out, they require all these onerous requirements, and the people that can survive as businesses are the crony big corporations that have found loopholes. So, why are you optimistic that our regulatory state would be any better than the current way government fails to do this to begin with?

Marion Nestle
0:26:01
I'm not. I'm just idealistic about having a government that actually is interested in public health and environmental health. I wish we had that. I would totally agree with you that we don't have it now, but we've had governments in the past that were actually interested in doing things for people as a whole and not for corporations. Can we go back to that? I don't know. I hope so.

Marion Nestle
0:26:25
I hope in my lifetime. Wouldn't that be nice?

Evan Baehr
0:26:28
I'm curious about this.

Evan Baehr
0:26:29
You're not saying you have a low view, just a rational view about humans' ability to control desires, control what they eat. What do you make of the whole nutrition and wellness movement? All sorts of apps and wearables and constant glucose monitors and grain-free products. Maybe it's always been around, but at least in my circles, it seems like it's all the rage,

Evan Baehr
0:26:52
what kind of diet you're on. Are you pretty pessimistic that those aren't real solutions that people won't stick with them and it won't really move the needle for public health?

Marion Nestle
0:27:02
No, I think the point of it is it's in your social group and your social group is healthy. So the real question is how do you widen the social group of people who are interested in health? I think to expect individuals to make big changes in the way they eat is unreasonable. The sort of mantra about it is you want to make the healthy choice the easy choice and the desirable choice.

Marion Nestle
0:27:31
And you can do that in a lot of ways. You do it by making healthier food cheaper than unhealthy food. You do it through regulations that make it inconvenient to buy unhealthy food. You do it through things like food labeling. I think people have to come to this their own way. They have to make their own decisions about it. They have to decide they want to make those kinds of changes. And now, of course, they've got drugs. And we'll see how those drugs work and whether people can afford them and who's able to get access to them and all the other inequities in our society

Marion Nestle
0:28:07
and in our health care system and in our food system. I mean, that's one of the things that's interesting about food is it hits on everything. And it certainly hits on inequities. I think what works is people decide for themselves that they want to make changes. I like to talk about the role of the food industry in dietary choice. It's one of the reasons why I do, because I want people to understand the political and social forces that they're in the middle of, and

Marion Nestle
0:28:40
they have to make their own decisions about what they're going to do or whether they're going to do something about it. But I certainly don't think that it's something that I control. And I never tell people what I think they should do. So not my style. I will ask you to tell me what to do

Evan Baehr
0:28:58
because we're in a conversation and all. So tell me this, when you imagine this future world, it's really what we're trying to think about here, which is how can we think about the right role of markets and government and corporations and entrepreneurs that build new things.

Evan Baehr
0:29:16
It sounded like some additional regulation, elimination of some of the subsidies to corn, et cetera. If you could issue kind of a call to arms to entrepreneurs, that people want to build new things, new types of food systems, new types of crops, new types of marketing, whatever it is.

Evan Baehr
0:29:35
There's a lot of players here. What is your call to arms for entrepreneurs?

Marion Nestle
0:29:40
Well, I want you to figure out how to make it possible for people to eat more healthfully.

Evan Baehr
0:29:46
And do you think that is a new kind of food product, new kind of packaging, new kind of distribution? Any of the above?

Marion Nestle
0:29:53
No.

Marion Nestle
0:29:54
This is not a problem that is going to be solved by business. It's a problem that's going to be solved by advocacy, solved by regulation, if we can ever get that. One of the real concerns that I have is that we don't have a civil society that is up in arms about obesity and its consequences, quite the contrary. And without that I don't see anything changing.

Evan Baehr
0:30:29
Yeah, just to bring us to a close, I know there's a great line from Edmund Burke that I like his observations. He said, when the French citizen wants something done, they demand that the government fix it. When the British want something done, they demand the nobility fix it. And when the Americans want something done, they fix it. So I think I might characterize your response is a little bit more French than mine. Mine might be a little bit more American, but I think there's probably a happy medium.

Evan Baehr
0:30:52
My thought is that over time, we've both seen that despite its best intentions, government has real limitations, largely because of some of the systems, including the money that you talked about. And so as best as we hope regulation is the panacea,

Evan Baehr
0:31:06
it's gosh, it's a panacea world that with all these imperfections, it means that the big guys, the most corrupt guys, are often the ones that get around them. So there's probably something in the middle of entrepreneurs helping come up with some of these solutions and better, more straight-lined, less corrupt regulation that has a chance of keeping this nation healthy. Well, I just want to celebrate.

Marion Nestle
0:31:14
I just want to say one thing. Show me.

Evan Baehr
0:31:21
Results. I love this. Hey, we really appreciate this conversation. So, Doctor, we really appreciate your time and your service to this country.

Evan Baehr
0:31:27
My pleasure. This episode of the In the Arena podcast is sponsored by Arena Hall. Thanks for listening and join us next time for more conversations about how to solve Thanks for listening and join us next time for more conversations about how to solve humanity's biggest problems.